Lancaster Priory 4 manual Makin available to good home

[David Pinnegar]

Dear James

Firstly I should have congratulated you earlier on your touch screen pics - looks brilliant . . . and I'm delighted that the speaker drivers I sent have produced a success: it's quite remarkable the change that can be achieved by simply knowing what drivers can sound real rather than synthesised. . . .

Yesterday I experienced first hand the value of analogue organs as a guest of an EOCS member who had built one over 20 years. This sort of dedication requires respect . . . Using free-phase circuits throughout - requiring 600 oscillators to be tuned for a tuning, the overall tutti is great. However I tried out some French baroque and individually the analogue representation of the Cromorne was lacking in spirit and, whatever others might say about temperament being a distraction, the equal temperament does not hold interest or excitement for Couperin, De Grigny nor Lasceux or achieve the pungency which one might want to experience in a Jeu de Tierce. But it's a great instrument on which to try out the most wonderful selection of mutuations and subharmonics that one rarely has the privilege of experiencing.





It's in this way that the Lancaster instrument may be similarly exciting . . .

Best wishes

David P

[jwillans]

Firstly I should have congratulated you earlier on your touch screen pics - looks brilliant . . . and I'm delighted that the speaker drivers I sent have produced a success: it's quite remarkable the change that can be achieved by simply knowing what drivers can sound real rather than synthesised. . . .

Thanks although that is not my console but that of another HW forum member.   Full thread can be found here:

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7771

Mine will be similiar in many respects and I expect work to begin in the next 6-8 weeks.  I'll keep you informed of progress.

James

[dragonser]

Hi,
I think that an enquiry might also indicate how easy it would be to re-voice the  instrument, as I think this would probably been necessary unless the Instrument was going to be put in a similar sized venue. From looking at the Makin web site this suggests that the Technology would either be analogue [ not rotating disks ] or the Bradford system. Both of course  have advantages and disadvantages.
I hope that a suitable new venue can be found for this instrument.

regards Peter B

Back on topic, I suppose the next step might be an enquiry to Makins in terms of technology used. We have all experienced ugly electronic sounding analogue electronic organs - but the Lancaster instrument has clearly stood the test  of time.

Best wishes

David P

[Barrie Davis]

From memory it was analogue, I am sure Anthony Bogdan or Hugh Banton even David Fetterman could answer thisin more detail. I did have the original leaflet on it until recently when I decided I didnt want to keep details of toasters. If it needed revoicing to suit a new home HB and DF are the best people to ask.

Best wishes

Barrie

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

I wonder if illuminated stops al la Compton might be the easiest way of incorporating some sort of electronic display - although of course, you would have to be wary of ambient light.  I've had the "fun" of playing an organ with illuminated rockers with bright sunlight streaming through the window  - obliterating any hope of seeing which great & pedal stops were on!  Not good when there's a Dulciana (in the logical place for the stop) that can be swapped with a Tuba!

The "quick and dirty" solution that I've seen is one Colin Pykett uses - there used to be some pix on his web site - not sure if they're still there.  Basically (he was using plain rocker tabs) printed label sheets that hung from small hooks above the stops.  Load the new set of sounds, and while it's loading, swap the labels over.  Simple - and it works.

That said, I definitely prefer drawstops - much easier to see - or even feel - what's drawn and easier to find in a hurry - especially on a strange organ.

Every Blessing

Tony

[jwillans]

Hi Tony,

I wonder if illuminated stops al la Compton might be the easiest way of incorporating some sort of electronic display - although of course, you would have to be wary of ambient light.  I've had the "fun" of playing an organ with illuminated rockers with bright sunlight streaming through the window  - obliterating any hope of seeing which great & pedal stops were on!  Not good when there's a Dulciana (in the logical place for the stop) that can be swapped with a Tuba!

The "quick and dirty" solution that I've seen is one Colin Pykett uses - there used to be some pix on his web site - not sure if they're still there.  Basically (he was using plain rocker tabs) printed label sheets that hung from small hooks above the stops.  Load the new set of sounds, and while it's loading, swap the labels over.  Simple - and it works.

I don't mind illuminated stop tabs (in fact my organ will have illuminated stop tabs for the couplers) and I can imagine an LCD placed in the middle of each would work well. 

I am trying to think of an appropriate LCD panel which would be small enough to sit in a drawstop, but with text large and clear enough to be seen.  Something like the following but smaller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LCD-Display-8x1-Backlight-NHD-0108HZ-FSW-GBW-Newhaven-/110469531368?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19b87f46e8

James

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

It might be appropriate to split this topic in due course more generally into consoles and into Lancaster Priory.

I had a response from Makin today:

1. What technology does it use?
Analogue built by our maintenance manager, David Fetterman.

Did it use the Compton rotating discs or was it more advanced with solid state generators? 
Updated to solid state generators.

2. What space does the electronics occupy?

Framed on the wall and extremely large (7 ft wide by 5 ft deep) also the capture system within the console (plug in on rack). 

3. Does anyone currently at Makin still maintain it? 
Yes, our maintenance manager, David Fetterman.    Last visit was in July 2011. 

4. Are circuit diagrams available?   No. 

5. How easily would it be to disassemble for reassembly elsewhere even on a temporary demonstration basis? 

This could be a possibility but we cannot guarantee it to work fully on completion.  This would be a mammoth task as the organ does not have any sides or back as it was built into the area in which is currently is.  (There is a fault on capture system on Generals which cannot be fixed.)  This procedure could take possibly up to two/three months provided a casing is made for the organ to fit into.  This is not a guarantee and discussions would have to take place with our maintenance manager, David Fetterman.

Certainly an interesting beast on this scale. It really depends perhaps on whether the sound is worth it . . .

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

I did have the original leaflet on it until recently when I decided I didnt want to keep details of toasters.

:) But there are toasters and toasters . . . how does this one compete in scale and ambition? Of analogues, Virgil Fox's Black Beauty was presumably larger . . . ?But how many others were built on this scale?

Whilst of course we all deprecate toasters in generality, at least this one can be celebrated in so far as it's being replaced by a proper organ again - even better - two!

Best wishes

David P

[dragonser]

Hi,
many thanks for the additional info. It is a shame that circuit diagrams are not available. as it uses analogue Oscillators this may explain the size of the electronics.......
at least Makin did reply to your questions.

regards Peter B

Hi!

I had a response from Makin today:
...............................................................................

Certainly an interesting beast on this scale. It really depends perhaps on whether the sound is worth it . . .

Best wishes

David P

[Jonathan Lane]

David Fetterman is a good guy who know a tremendous amount about Makin organs and their technology.  My contact with him was in two places, the analogue organ at Thames Ditton, due to be replaced shortly, and the early digital from Londonderry Cathedral.  In both cases, he solved a number of issues, but most notably with the analogue!

Jonathan

[David Pinnegar]

David Fetterman is a good guy who know a tremendous amount about Makin organs and their technology.  My contact with him was in two places, the analogue organ at Thames Ditton, due to be replaced shortly, and the early digital from Londonderry Cathedral.  In both cases, he solved a number of issues, but most notably with the analogue!

I am wondering whether in the light of Makin's response, the issue of possible preservation of the Lancaster instrument might well be down to the extent to which David Fetterman wants to see it preserved and possibly be willing to lend a hand and expertise on a less than commercial basis. The instrument cannot be considered to be of any commercial value but, akin to the issue of the extent to which 1950s and 60s buildings should be or are listed, whether the instrument is a landmark of its type.

If seeking to preserve an instrument of this class, how does Thames Ditton compare? Scale / technology / general effect? To anyone in the south east, the logistics of Thames Ditton are an advantage . . .

Certainly at Hammerwood the Londonderry digital instrument has proved most worthwhile and certain tricks that I have applied both to speakers and to signal processing transform it into another echelon, although I am conscious that the life expectancy is likely not to exceed another decade, and even less if attacked by a mouse. In contrast with that success, analogue technology, however, is the stuff of the well deserved reputation of "toasters" . . .

If David Fetterman is interested, however, his knowledge is encyclopaedic and he certainly successfully helped me out on a Saturday morning over the phone knowing exactly how to achieve a "hard reset" on the "beast".

Best wishes

David P

[dragonser]

Hi,
I guess as other people have mentioned it depends if the instrument at Thames Ditton  is as large as the one at Lancaster ? I guess probably not. But that might have advantages for a house practice Organ ?
timescale, and also is the console going to be reused ? are two  points to consider.
Does anyone know if the Makin analogue system is Free phase [ as in one oscillator per note ] or Divider [ one oscillator for each note of the scale ] ?

regards Peter B

[Jonathan Lane]

I can't answer the technical issues Peter as I'm a humble pipe organ builder.

As for details of the Thames Ditton Makin, it is a three manual instrument but for some bizarre reason only a two manual console, with a floating Choir Organ.  I can put you in touch with the relevant authorities.

Jonathan

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

These speakers need to be rescued this weekend to give access to the organ builders installing the pipe organ.





Best wishes

David P

[Jonathan Lane]

Where are they?

[David Pinnegar]

Where are they?

At Lancaster Priory . . .

I have been dealing with Ian Pattinson there. He's brilliant and very kind. If anyone would like to see what can be rescued this weekend he has given me his personal mobile number - telephone me 01342 850594 and I'll find it for you.

Best wishes

David P

[Jonathan Lane]

I hadn't put two and two together.  Unfortunately I have a full weekend among full weeks at present.  I hope someone can do something, as I believe it is essential we preserve all technology, even if the prove there are better things now!

Jonathan

[Contrabombarde]

I'm weighing in here having seen both a very interesting Hauptwerk console mentioned earlier in the thread and a discussion about how stopheads might have changable text for a virtual organ. I suspect most organists would prefer a console with drawstops to any other method of changing registration (unless they are a theatre organist). Personally I could cope in a digital organ having illuminated drawstops (similar to some of Compton's organs) but they tend to only be found in higher end digital organs, and I've never even seen them used in real pipe organs.

The problem with any conventional console with labelled drawstops that is linked to a virtual organ is that you are pretty much forced to play the organ that corresponds to the labels. And the beauty of virtual organs like Hauptwerk is that you can experiment, add ranks and stops sampled from some of the world's finest pipe organs, and generally configure your organ to a limitless degree. That said, there are a number of ways in which this could be overcome. For example, a very simple method would be to have interchangable, slide-outable strips above the otherwise blank knobs so that the specification of whatever virtual organ you are playing corresponds to the knobs:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8117/2ml8.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7647/mg2117fc5.jpg

The Novation Launchpad has an 8 by 8 matrix of square buttons that light up when pressed and a number of Hauptwerk users are using this to control stops, perhaps you could put a swapable clear plastic overlay depending on the organ specification:

http://cdn1.ableton.com/resource/599fec9fc8232063fd8d637816b66b21/launchpad-ableton-main-image.png

With Hauptwerk you don't get a lot of choice about the default graphics that come with each commercial sample set, though if you don't mind losing some functionality you can design your own user interface, though it is supposedly rather complicated to do so. A number of Hauptwerk users are using j-organ for stop controls since j-organ is easier to customise the user interface, such as the photo previously illustrated (notice that when "on", the stops "jump out" at you), and the thread alluded to in Hauptwerk suggested that the current crop of 23 inch monitors are pretty similar in dimensions to a three or four manual stopjamb:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8862/salisburyo.jpg

THe advantage of a touchscreen over any other technology is that it avoids redundant knobs - with physical knobs or buttons, you are limited to however many you have in your console and if you have fewer stops, some will be unused. With j-organ you only need as many knobs as there are stops in your organ, and a larger organ can be controlled by smaller stops.

But the ultimate solution is perhaps a variation on this:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7308/
http://xsreviews.co.uk/reviews/other-products/optimus-mini-three/

Just imagine, each stopknob would have the name of the stop appear in a 1 inch or smaller OLED screen on the stop head; and this would change depending on which virtual organ was selected. Undoubtedly very expensive, but crying out for someone to try. I even read that small (1inch diamter) circular OLED screens are now available which would be perfect for such an application.

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Some members here and I have been urging preservation of the four manual Lancaster Priory Makin.

1. Future home for it: is anyone interested, possibly a school, in four manual instrument that has been inspirational enough to survive for three decades? It could be maintained easily by a school 6th form Physics department.

2. Is anyone able to help, physically, and possibly with expertise and possibly with a lorry to assist in moving it within the week of 16th April?

I have space to house it temporarily in a dry barn.

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

Sorry, but health is going to mean there's no way I can help on site.

Every Blessing

Tony