Pedal Acoustic Bass 32

[David Drinkell]

Thanks - I didn't know about those.  I haven't been in Christchurch Priory since the early days of the Compton-Makin, when Geoffrey Tristram was still alive.  Parkstone looked interesting when it was written-up after the rebuild.  A conscientious attempt to produce something like a Compton.  I've often wondered if it was a success.

[pcnd5584]

Thanks - I didn't know about those.  I haven't been in Christchurch Priory since the early days of the Compton-Makin, when Geoffrey Tristram was still alive.  Parkstone looked interesting when it was written-up after the rebuild.  A conscientious attempt to produce something like a Compton.  I've often wondered if it was a success.

I have played the instrument at Parkstone for recitals, concerts and services on a number of occasions. I must admit that I do not particularly like it. It is a little too loud for the building (which is a good reason not to use absolutely full organ). In addition, whilst Compton's voicing was not always of top quality (for example, orchestral reeds), Osmond's was even less so. My own preference, to be honest, would have been to have had a smaller instrument - and with considerably less extension.

[Barrie Davis]

Out of interest and off the subject, whats happened to the other large Compton in Parkstone, I think the Greek Orthodox took over the building.

Barrie

[David Drinkell]

There was some discussion about this (St. Osmund, Parkstone) on the Mander Invision Power Board a few months ago.  Apparently, the organ is still there, but in poor shape - at least partially playable.  I gather that the resident Orthodox congregation are cognisant of its historical importance, but obviously it doesn't fit into their way of worship.  Therefore, they are unlikely to try to get rid of it, but one can't expect them to maintain it either.

[pcnd5584]

There was some discussion about this (St. Osmund, Parkstone) on the Mander Invision Power Board a few months ago.  Apparently, the organ is still there, but in poor shape - at least partially playable.  I gather that the resident Orthodox congregation are cognisant of its historical importance, but obviously it doesn't fit into their way of worship.  Therefore, they are unlikely to try to get rid of it, but one can't expect them to maintain it either.

This is indeed the case.

The last time I played this instrument (about three years ago), it was in a fairly bad state, with a number of stops not working and others only partly so. It seems unlikely that it will be restored in the forseeable future.

[makemoreandmore]

Hi

I have never been totally satisfied with the sound produced by Quinted 32s, often they Quint is derived from the Bourdon which is often far too loud. I recently played a small organ with a synoptic spec as follows; 16, 10.2/3, 8, 5 1/3, 4, all derived from the one Bourdon unit. The 10.2/3 was useless and certainly did not produce a realistic 32 sound.
I have heard of, but never some across, organs which have a 32 the lowest octave being quinted off a seperate octave of Quint pipes, these standing on their own chest and voiced quietly to provided the needed 5th. Does any member know of any places where this has been done?

Best wishes

Barrie

I am hoping that it will be possible in our project to have an independent 10 2/3 , made up of a second hand small scale Swell Bourdon. The proposed pedal department is a large scale Open Wood,  a solid Bourdon, Principal and fifteenth (metal) and a wooden Trombone.

I read somewhere the other day (maybe on here?) about the most convincing acoustic being produced by an organ where instead of using a fifth, a fourth was employed.

That reminded me of an old organ which had a 12' rank on the pedal.

Since we are using Solid State, electronically we can do anything, and it has been suggested that in addition to (or instead of, if the 10 2/3 rank doesn't materialise) that we quint off the Open Wood for a big ground shaker as one stop, then use another quint off the Bourdon for a soft one.

I have never met an resultant 32' that I have been happy with, and wondered if anyone has any experience of any of the above configurations, and especially if you know of an organ with  a 12' pedal stop.

[matt h]

Hi

I remember reading somewhere that the best combination for an acoustic bass is an open pipe for the 16' and a soft stopped pipe for the 10 2/3'.

If the 16' stopped pipe is too quiet in relation to the 10 2/3', in my opinion the result sounds very 'heavy', without producing the desired effect.
One thing I have done in the past is to try and produce the effect an octave higher on the manuals (where there are usually more ranks to experiment with), which can give a good indication of what is required in a given acoustic.

Regards,
Matt.

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Some time ago Matthew Copley kindly talked to the Surrey Organists's Association demonstrating the Frobenius at Kingston Parish Church.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZCQ3cMr4pk is a record of some of his talk in which the 32 Acoustic was demonstrated and there it was rather effective.

Use of a fourth . . . The acoustic 32 depends on the harmonics, resultant beat notes between any adjacent harmonics being the fundamental note. So taking C as a fundamental, the harmonics are sequentially C, G and C then E and G above. So if one plays the C and G above, it will synthesise the C below. To use a fourth one uses the G and the C two octaves above the desired note. In this case in order not to sound muddy, the unison rank needs to be stronger than the fourth below.

Best wishes

David P

[AnOrganCornucopia]

I may have said this earlier, but the 1912 Walker of the Sacred Heart, Wimbledon, possesses three 32ft stops - a Double Open Wood, an Acoustic Bass and a Contra Trombone (full-length). The Acoustic Bass uses the Bourdon as its fundamental, but has a 12-note independent quint rank (it simply being the Bourdon from TC up). I believe that the quint rank is made up of very small-scaled wooden stopped flute pipes. It is most effective and provides a useful alternative to the Double Open Wood, particularly for underpinning the soft undulating strings on the Choir organ (the DOW being really too powerful for that).

The organ at St Michael-upon-Cornhill, London, which is a mix of 1684 Harris, 1790ish Green, several Hill rebuilds and 1926 Rushworth & Dreaper, likewise has an independent quint rank for the bottom octave. This is, rather cleverly, enclosed in the Choir box, enabling the 32ft effect to be reduced (along with the strings) to near-inaudibility. It's one of a number of truly magical effects on that (IMO) criminally-underrated organ... I'd say it's closely comparable with King's Cambridge as a happy mix of high-pressure Romantic and low-pressure Classical... and has a similarly beautiful acoustic, resonant and clear, into which to speak.

[Contrabombarde]

Stephen Hamill, who builds Phoenix electronic instruments, has/had a big three manual example with a 64' reed on the pedal.  Big rumble!!

:-) The Hammerwood beast has a 128ft . . . ! Whilst this is purely electronic, I have been looking for the opportunity to work with a pipe organ builder making a 32ft or 64ft electronic derivation from an existing 16ft pipe rank.

I think it is used on one or two notes in Jeremy Filsell's playing on the YouTube video "Latrobian Dionysian Whirl" and, reading the comments about having measured 4Hz on the recording, by Ben Scott http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyMKVM0tvA

It would be fun to do this sort of thing wih a pipe organ. St Mary's Edinburgh with 3 32ft ranks might be a candidate . . .

Best wishes

David P

If you have 16 feet of roofspace there is nothing to stop you from creating a resultant 64 foot from quinting a stopped 32 foot (ie 16 foot long) bourdon though I can't imagine it would be very effective.

As few organs have even one 32 flue let alone two I can't say I have been able to compare between a 32 open and a 32 stopped flue. My previous church's organ was originally specified for a 32 wood open, but the cost of the bottom twelve pipes was prohibitive. I'd have thought an octave of 16 foot long stopped pipes would be far cheaper (and there must be plenty of open 16 woods on the used market - could they be converted to a 32 foot rank by stopping them)?

As an earlier post said, no easy way round the cost - a digital 32 foot in a church requires such a huge and expensive amp and speaker that you might almost go for the real thing.  But if a 32 foot bourdon or a COmpton polyphone could do something similar for much less space and cost, why don't we use them more often?

[David Pinnegar]

As an earlier post said, no easy way round the cost - a digital 32 foot in a church requires such a huge and expensive amp and speaker that you might almost go for the real thing.  But if a 32 foot bourdon or a COmpton polyphone could do something similar for much less space and cost, why don't we use them more often?

Well not quite. I'm using two cheap 18 inch units in parallel with a 50W amp, probably capable of 100W peak. One is really only looking at mathematical sonic underpinning rather than anything intended for nightclub  fairground effects on the stomach . . .

Best wishes

David P

[AnOrganCornucopia]

I think that the 32ft stopped flue comes up against problems with standing waves. Many have been made in recent times but I'm told they are rarely satisfactory.

[Holditch]

Well not quite. I'm using two cheap 18 inch units in parallel with a 50W amp, probably capable of 100W peak. One is really only looking at mathematical sonic underpinning rather than anything intended for nightclub  fairground effects on the stomach . . .

Hi David

Are these 2 x 18" drivers mounted in an infinite baffle that extends under your floor? I seem to remember you mentioning this on one of your Youtube clips?

True 16Hz fundamentals usually require large boxes

Best Regards
Marc

[David Pinnegar]

Are these 2 x 18" drivers mounted in an infinite baffle that extends under your floor? I seem to remember you mentioning this on one of your Youtube clips?

True 16Hz fundamentals usually require large boxes

Hi!

Yes - one mounted above the other in a shallow box venting into the floor, and inadvertantly a partition wall that needed strengthening against vibration . . . (used expanding foam). It's in a corner of the room taking advantage of the efficiency increase of radiation into 1/8th space.

Best wishes

David P

[pcnd5584]

I think that the 32ft stopped flue comes up against problems with standing waves. Many have been made in recent times but I'm told they are rarely satisfactory.

I am not sure about standing waves - I would need to do some more research. However, I know of a few examples of stopped Bourdon-type ranks which make excellent 32ft. pedal stops. One or two are situated in quite dry acoustics and are still most effective. Some are even better than open pipes. (As an example of a bad open stop in a superb acoustic, I would cite the 32ft. wood stop at Truro Cathedral. I am not alone in finding this to be most disappointing. Some notes are inordinately loud - low A, for example - whilst several others are virtually inaudible anywhere in the cathedral.) This said, the 32ft. metal stop at Salisbury is excellent, as is the metal Contra Violone at Exeter - apart, that is, from the lowest four notes, which are rather poor. Whether they would be better if the area around the mouths was spotted metal, instead of zinc *, I am not sure.



* Experiments have shown that, whilst there is a perceptible difference in the quality (in both senses) of the tone of a flue pipe when different materials are used around the mouth area, there is virtually no difference with regard to the body of the pipe above the mouth.

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Interesting. It has to be said that a really good Acoustic can be excellent where height is at a premium. I do love a big metal Contra Violone, too - they do seem to be the most effective type of open 32.

What are Compton Polyphones and Cube Basses like?

[pcnd5584]

Interesting. It has to be said that a really good Acoustic can be excellent where height is at a premium. I do love a big metal Contra Violone, too - they do seem to be the most effective type of open 32.

What are Compton Polyphones and Cube Basses like?

Yes - although the Double Open Diapason (of wood) at Bristol Cathedral is also an excellent stop - and in superb acoustics.

[David Drinkell]

Interesting. It has to be said that a really good Acoustic can be excellent where height is at a premium. I do love a big metal Contra Violone, too - they do seem to be the most effective type of open 32.

What are Compton Polyphones and Cube Basses like?

Yes - although the Double Open Diapason (of wood) at Bristol Cathedral is also an excellent stop - and in superb acoustics.

I'll second that!  A really fine 32'.  Clifford Harker used to use it to wonderful effect in the psalms.

Compton cubes tended to be very temperamental.  At their best, they could give an effective 32' down to EEEE, repeating on the lowest notes, but they were very sensitive to placement, standing waves, acoustics, and everything else.  Polyphones were more reliable and less likely to do funny things when put in position.

[Bobbell9]

I regularly play a four manual Copeman-Hart organ which was originally installed in 1972 (at that time the largest electronic in Europe) and was digitised in 2003. The Bass speaker is built into a pair of huge brick chambers approximately 20 foot high. You can hear the 32' basses both reed and flue.

The other point to note is among the pedal stops are harmonics of 32' 10 2/3, 6 2/5 and 4 4/7' all correctl;y tuned (i.e. not derived from any other rank. When these are used with  reasonably loud 16 stops, a very convincing 32 reed tune is produced.

The Solo organ contains a full string chorus from 16' to mixture. ;D

[Bobbell9]

By the way has anyone heard of rotary woofers for pedal notes.

see http://www.rotarywoofer.com/telarc/telarc%20carpenter%20recording.html