A member's signature

[organforumadmin]

Hi!

A particular member's signature has just been drawn to my attention:

Christmas? Bah humbug! Can't stand Christmas! Christ wasn't born in December anyway - if he ever existed, which is doubtful.


New Year? New beginnings? Rubbish! New beginnings my foot! The world is just as bad as ever.

with the question as to whether it is offensive to anyone on the forum.

Perhaps that's why areas for faith and disbelief exist in their own section of the forum. Doubting the physical existence of Christ somewhat contradicts rather a weight of documentary evidence which would simply not exist were he not to have existed . . . and perhaps the member concerned might simply contribute in this area of the forum confined to such matters rather than raising it through a signature on all posts throughout the forum . . . ?

Perhaps the signature has a poignant relevance. New beginnings are possible and the world is only as bad as ever if new beginnings aren't embraced . . . and isn't that why we celebrate the coming to earth and making of flesh of "The Idea" . . . the idea of bringing order out of disorder, the idea that new beginnings are possible, that the mind can be born again in order to make those new beginnings, the idea that Heaven can be created on Earth.

But if new beginnings aren't acknowledged, if we shut our eyes to rebirth and to "The Idea" being made flesh to teach us, then earth will remain the animal jungle that it can be without "The Idea" taking hold in flesh.

Christmas is the time when we celebrate such an idea and at a time too when the shaft of celestial light at mid-winter solstice hit the shrines of the Earth Mother in ancient stone structures and brought her to life, heralding the spring and new growth. The Greek mythology likewise has Hades capturing Persephone, daughter of Demeter, Mother Earth, and Zeus, the Sun, negotiating her return to the land of the living for two thirds of the year. Similarly,  Apollo (god of Light) abandoned his temples for half the year, leaving them to the tender mercies of Dionysus.

All of this symbolism was embodied in Christ by the early Christians, to whom it all made perfect sense with all of its festivals, but in an age bereft of its past, the timeless understanding of Christmas can be viewed as patent nonsense in itself in absence of the heritage which it subsumed . . . but in coming to terms with the ancient agricultural understanding (on which we still depend whether we like it or not), its meaning in terms of birth, rebirth, and new beginnings might be better appreciated and taken to heart . . . 

So perhaps the member's signature might be removed from elsewhere and possibly be enshrined merely here?

Best wishes


Forum Admin

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

Christmas is not a myth - it's documented by one of the most reliable historians of the time - Luke (and Matthew).  Agreed, we don't know the timing - and the early church may or may not have appropriated a pagan festival for their chosen date (incidentally, some sections of the church celebrate Christmas on 6th January).  Really the timing isn't important - it's the fact of God becoming man - Immanuel - God with us, and His subsequent life, death and resurrection that ARE important - not what dates we choose to celebrate them on.

Agreed, a lot of myths have grown up around the Christmas story - see for example the 2 Christmas sermons that I've posted on this forum.  The stable is almost certanily a myth.  The shepherds and the wise men probably didn't appear at the same time - more like a year or more apart.  The wise men didn't follow the star the whole way - they saw it (whatever it was) and, understanding its significant,went to investigate.  The only time they were "led" by the star was from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

OTOH - what's in a signature - people are entitled to their beliefs, where "I" agree with them or not.  I may try and change them - that's a different matter.  A lot of the commercialisation of Christmas I find very problematic - and especially the "eat, drink and be merry" attitude that's so prevalent these days.

Personally, I find the signature mentioned troubling rather than offensive - troubling because of its indication of underlying problems with Christianity.  (But then I would!)

Every Blessing

Tony

[dragonser]

Hi, well the only part of the signature I feel I can comment on is the part that says "Rubbish! New beginnings my foot! The world is just as bad as ever."
I guess  my comment would be that if the World is a bad as ever then it is down to us all to make it a bit better !
best wishes for the New Year.

regards Peter

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Tony and Peter have brought most relevant thoughts to the discussion, which I hope that the "signature Member" and possibly others who find disillusionment in this world may find particularly helpful.

However, happening to be aware of the "signature Member's" familiar persuasions, visiting Malta was a particularly interesting experience this year. Malta is a significantly devout Roman Catholic country and one which celebrates a long religious past extending to temples built 2500-3600 BC. The book documenting their celestial alignments "and religious motives" by Klaus Albrecht draws significant comparisons between the relationship of the temples indicating union of celestial light with Earth Mother creating new life each year and the union of the heavenly spirit with the Virgin Mary and the depictions of Mary surrounded by light and often in a grotto and of Jesus indicated by a celestial halo and indeed the festivals with processions where the golden figure of Jesus is turned around on its axis and transported at a running pace in harmony with the procession of the sun.

Humankind has a long history, a long memory and as Albrecht observes "Even thousamds of years in-between, and diverse cultural trends have superseded one another, there appears to be religious archetypes which assert themselves again and again".

Certainly the Romans for whom Christianity provided a means of extending the Empire beyond its physical sell-by date had subsumed elements of beliefs into the colleges of their religion and these found fulfillment and embodiment in what could be read into the Christian story. Another example of this is recorded by our forum member who has written about the way in which Cuban drums and drumming preserved the African religions under the guise of Christian celebration. That particular post is well worth looking up. (   http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,339.0.html#msg4465 )

In these days of the earth preponderably inhabited by city-dwellers with no connexion with food growing, understandings of ecology come through the green movement, but in more rural days, agriculture and its rhythms were all part of God's creation.

It's in this way that possibly recognising components of former ideas being embodied into the way in which we worship God in the cycle of festivals of Christianity can bring greater fulfillment of understanding and worship of God, all things being created by God. We don't have to reject those manifestations of worship as Pagan or myths: they are all part of a wider greater whole and don't have to be considered to be the wrecking ball that smashes down the edifice.

The fact that Christmas as a feasttime has multiple origins each of which having a validity of viewpoint and possibly continuing heritage from the origins of man's consciousness makes its celebration more potent, more all encompassing, more important, taking multiple meanings and symbolistics, piled into one and condensed and concentrated. No single aspect diminishes the whole and it becomes and enrichment of the threads of tapestry within which we live.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

The fact that Christmas as a feasttime has multiple origins each of which having a validity of viewpoint and possibly continuing heritage from the origins of man's consciousness makes its celebration more potent, more all encompassing, more important, taking multiple meanings and symbolistics, piled into one and condensed and concentrated. No single aspect diminishes the whole and it becomes and enrichment of the threads of tapestry within which we live.

Radio 3 this week has been hosting numerous interviews on the subject of faith and this evening's with Professor Rupert Sheldrake http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0071lcf was particularly interesting. He complains of the beliefs held by materialist science upon the basis of assumptions which are unquestioned. He looks at the Sun as a conscious being (- why not? It has interacting electromagnetic fields, currents and waves and the interactions, resulting in solar flares behave unpredictably to us but in a manner known only to itself and the current state depends upon the interaction of the present with the past and influences the future . . . ) but he takes the link of past and future with us in the present as a concept which he calls Morphic Resonance.

So the fact that we celebrate at Christmas all the things that we understand Christ to bring to the world, the fact that churches and cathedrals are places where heaven interacts with earth, resonates with all that has gone before in just the same manner that we can see from the evidence of the ancient temples in Malta.

He also talks about the Trinity in terms of the Word and the Spirit, meaning the breath. The sound cannot be carried without the breath . . .

When the programme becomes available to listen again it's worth doing - and if anyone has speech recognition software it would be most helpful to be able to read a transcript.

Oh . . . I hear muttering that this is nothing to do with organs . . . well actually it's a prime case where the organ has influenced an atheist scientist to a deeper understanding . . . Prof Sheldrake learned the organ at school . . .

. . . and throughout years of atheism the organ keeps the being in touch with those places of deeper understanding until perhaps one is more able to understand . . .

Best wishes

David P

[Pierre Lauwers]

This is a forum about the organ, not religious matters. Those are quite complicated, I know it from having
myself tried to understand what I could about those matters.
Moreover, this is quite a hot topic worldwide nowadays, when we have many people throwing the debates
towards the extremes, often basing themselves upon a knowledge of the matter I fear could be somewhat
limited -I would never dare to enter such a debate, despite having read the Bible, St-Augustin et al a certain
number of times, not to mention others sacred litteratures from India, Thaïland (I have had interesting experiences
there in buddhist monasteries) etc.
So I think we should better avoid such debates on an organ forum.
From that view point, such a signature as the one discussed here is a provocative thing, as it tends to lauch
such debates.
In the troubled times we live in, maybe it is better to restrict onesellf, with such matters, to a silent study, confrontation,
meditation with the sources. The rest belongs to who we know.

Best wishes,
Pierre

[revtonynewnham]

Pierre

The list owner has set up a couple of sections here for religious discussion.  Given the number of organs in churches, it is a very relevant area.  If you're not interested, then you don't need to open the messages to those fora.

For many of us, our Christian faith is a central part of our lives, and some mention can't be avoided.

Every Blessing

Tony

[KB7DQH]

A case-in-point-- Quoted below are comments to a news article describing the construction of a new organ from parts of three others...

I am not a fan of churches
Submitted by secretsquirrel on Sat, 12/31/2011 - 12:48.

I am not a fan of churches being tax free but I don't lose any sleep over it. Part of the reason is due to the tremendous amount of charitable work Catholic Charities does in the communities they serve. I don't care what they believe, how they believe, what they worship or how they choose to do so. There is a return on their presence in this community and if they want to invest in an organ comprised of parts from all of the now defunct parishes to symbolize the union of these parishes, what possible difference could it make to the average Joe?
In the end, there will be beautiful music coming from a group of people who cherish something special, share in their faith and experience a fellowship more beneficial than that of the holy taxpayer.
Congratulations to Divine Mercy and their congregation.

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What could have been done?
Submitted by quizkid on Sat, 12/31/2011 - 11:57.

What could a quarter of a million $ do in a community ?

Definition of OSTENTATIOUS:
marked by or fond of conspicuous or vainglorious and sometimes pretentious display

Seven Deadly Sins:
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Acedia
Wrath
Envy
Pride
VAINGLORY

".....The prominence and priority of the organ is one of the deciding factors in a musician's decision to serve a faith community."

What happened to faith and serving your god ?

"We also believe this organ will attract talent and leadership to our church...."

So you have no talent and leadership now ? Or the fact that you can spend $250,000 on just an an organ will bring talent and leadership with $ signs in their eyes ?

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PNYBT: Not quite sure about your blog (??)
Submitted by ConcernedFbltCitizen on Sat, 12/31/2011 - 00:59.

Attn: "pnybt" ---Your comment in your blog is confusing. You stated: "$250,000.000 for a pipe organ using parts from the other churches?. Dig deeper Faribault citizens. The church will be asking for more money for "God" -----The cost of the organ has nothing to do with "Fblt citizens" digging deeper as you suggested. The cost of the organ is being paid for and handled by "parish members" and Divine Mercy Church funding, not by the " Fblt community" as a whole. And....the church supports and helps out many members of the community, which is just the opposite of what you suggest.

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new organ =more money
Submitted by pnybt on Fri, 12/30/2011 - 09:57.

$250,000.000 for a pipe organ using parts from the other churches?. Dig deeper Faribault citizens. The church will be asking for more money for "God"

So certainly "economics" plays a part in decision making related to organs-- however, as most organs are located within "Judeo-Christian" worship spaces one's faith or lack thereof and the means by which this is expressed in religious context cannot be divorced from the debate concerning the survival of pipe organs as the "King of Instruments".  This forum is likely the only one :o :o :o :    which in addition to all other considerations 8) 8) 8)   is willing boldly to delve into this very important aspect.

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

So I think we should better avoid such debates on an organ forum.

From that view point, such a signature as the one discussed here is a provocative thing, as it tends to launch
such debates.
In the troubled times we live in, maybe it is better to restrict onesellf, with such matters, to a silent study, confrontation, meditation with the sources. The rest belongs to who we know.

:-) I have a fundamental belief that arguments about religion can "be disappeared" if people are willing to take a holistic approach . . . and in that I was particularly impressed in listening to Professor Sheldrake
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018nsjk
- "listen again" just for this week
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b018nsjk
As a former atheist and also in his worldview as a scientist, he is a maveric voice worth hearing.

Just as science needs to rid itself of the assumptions that Sheldrake mentions, separatist religionists and atheists might follow too.

In talking about the Indian christian Ashram where prayers to the Sun were said . . . Why? He responded that it was because this is a Catholic church in its truest sense . . .

That is possibly what makes the Catholic heritage interesting in Malta and the African drumming elsewhere . . . because it can be and arguably should be inclusive rather than exclusive. Binding rather than divisive. This therefore is a power of understanding, a power of peace and the promotion of peace.

And Sheldrake studied the organ.

I believe that the organ can bring people to greater (holistic) understanding, and, in an age where the young know nothing from practice of christian or religious behaviour, it being specifically excluded from schools, it has a greater part to play in our communities, which would be the better for it, and the organ has a part to play in that. Therefore, although many would disagree, helping people find their way through faith and atheism I believe has a part to play in an organ forum. Let's celebrate the power of the organ in its power to introduce people to enlightenment and civilisation beyond the animal jungle . . .

The organ needs championing and this is an area that is important. Those who have championed avoiding the loss of music in schools are starting to get appropriate recognition for the benefits of music. So the organ too . . .

Professionally I come from the preservation of the Greek Revival, a flourishing of the Enlightenment and the Benjamin Henry Latrobe heritage requires me to take it on board, recognising that the 19th century dumped it wholesale and that not all in the 19th century led us in the right direction. There are those in the organ world who might agree with me about that . . . :-)

However, in so far as the signature is concerned, appearing not merely in a faith or atheist's corner, I am in wholehearted agreement with you . . . but, in a spirit of freedom, removing it from the signature is possibly a matter of understanding that I'd hope that the young member concerned might embrace before long. :-)

On the matter of provocation, and wholly irrelevant and irreverant too, Michael O'Leary's interview in Brussels http://euroseptik.cz/michael-oleary-ryanair-rika-aparatcikum-z-evropske-komise-co-si-o-nich-mysli/ is hilarious and there is a transcript there which Google Translate in Google Chrome will enable one to skim through.

In order for organs to be preserved from the bulldozers, to be appreciated and venerated, then it's worth doing what we believe in and saying to people why organs are good for society.

Our society needs people like Sir Paul Coleridge to point to better ways in the human jungle, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/divorce/8988995/Judge-launches-foundation-to-reduce-disease-of-divorce.html
and not be afraid of doing it, and the organ can do it too . . . ! :-)

Best wishes

David P

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Re the 19th century and what you have just said about it: what a load of piffle!

The 19th century saw Britain thrive economically. We became the leading power in the industrialised world. We built the world's railways. We had the best organs (anybody who says a Father Willis or a Lewis is inferior to a Cavaillé-Coll or a Walcker is talking rot, whereas the 18th century English organ was incredibly backward compared to the French, Dutch and German organs of the time). Architecture improved enormously (moving from misunderstood neo-Palladian and neo-Grecian ideas, through the Picturesque to a scholarly understanding of the Gothic) and our badly neglected, battered churches and cathedrals were restored or replaced altogether. Healthcare improved enormously. Huge amounts were done to tackle poverty and improve housing for the poor. Catholic emancipation happened (and, between the resurgence of Catholicism and the fightback from the high end of the Anglican church, we saw a battle to build ever-finer churches - just look at Pugin's buildings in Ramsgate and the G.G. Scott Anglican church!). The vanity and frivolity of the Georgian era was banished once and for all. Enormous political reform occurred, making the system vastly fairer, the rotten boroughs were done away with. A series of huge art and industry exhibitions (the famous 1851 Great Exhibition among them) happened. A simply vast amount of innovation in every conceivable field was ongoing. Magnificent new churches were built, along with town halls, public concert halls, art galleries, working mens' institutions... Here in Leatherhead we still bless the name of Abraham Dixon, who, having retired to the area from the industrial West Midlands, built the Letherhead (sic) Institute, which is still extremely busy, with a vast number of lectures, masterclasses, evening classes etc provided at zero or minimal cost. The Victorian era saw a level of public and civic pride and investment in art and education never before seen... and, the same year as my local Father Willis was built, Karl Benz created the automobile, arguably the greatest invention in history, which has done more to enable the ordinary man to better his lot than anything else I can think of. Oh, and telecommunications, which were to transform the world in a second huge technological revolution, were just starting to come into being.

Now, tell me that the 18th century was as much as half so glorious...

[David Pinnegar]

:-) I thought that would stir up some interesting thoughts.

Certainly in the organ world the adoption of equal temperament drove out the mixtures, people complained the organs sounded harsh and the tierces were lost, leading to blandness, octopods and what was seen by the Organ Reform Movement of the 20th century to be the debased heritage of Hope Jones . . .

In the wider world, the ideas behind the Renaissance and the subsequent Enlightenment were dumped, symbolised by the Gothicists taking architectural control certainly by the time Pugin comes on the scene, if not led by him.

The 18th century was one in which freedom of thought flourished, fed by the Renaissance and Enlightenment, and it flowered particularly through Freemasonry which in the 17th century was the only forum one could explore ideas freely: going from town to town in Germany for instance, with hostility between Christian sects of Calvinism, Protestantism, Catholicism and the Anabaptists, the expression of a locally unacceptable persuasion would lead to having your head cut off, rather in the same way that we see Islamists behaving a few centuries later - https://rt.com/news/infidel-santa-killed-tajikistan-133/ a sure sign of fear of assumptions being exposed to scrutiny.

When the industrial revolution took hold in the 19th century the primary source of food was to buy it rather than to grow it. Whereas the land grew food for you, godwilling, no matter what mortals thought about you, buying food was rather different. It required you to earn money and get a job, the latter depending on whether someone thought you fit for employment. You did not express ideas which might be awkward to those from whom you depended for money, so you kept quiet, ideas were left unexpressed, unexplored, undeveloped, in the subsequent generations merely silent internalised thoughts . . . and died.

It was in this way that the freedoms of thought that flourished in the Enlightenment died.

As a result there are few who understand the meaning of Genesis 6:
"And there were Giants in the earth in those days. And after that, when the Sons of God came into the daughters of men, their issue were the Men of Renown".

Who were the Men of Renown?

Anyone educated in the 18th century could have told you, as could the translators of the 17th century and, whilst the 19th century was the start of the process, many then too. But certainly the numbers who know to what that phrase refers in the 20th and 21st centuries are thin on the ground. . .

The benefits we see in the 20th century of a technological revolution are a mere illusion. I am a fan of Chaplin:

We have developed speed but we have shut ourselves in:
machinery that gives abundance has left us in want.
Our knowledge has made us cynical,
our cleverness hard and unkind.
We think too much and feel too little:

http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/chaplin.htm

Materialism and material success is not the answer, as increasingly we discover. The organ is a component to inspire and bring back people into places not of this world and where thoughts otherwise drowned out (by the noise of machinery and iPlayed ear-drugs, and the process control of administrations and "line managers") can flourish.

Best wishes

David P

[AnOrganCornucopia]

The adoption of equal temperament made it possible to play and listen to a much less limited repertoire on a single instrument without wanting to tear one's head off... a church near me has recently spent a lot of money on a new organ, around a nucleus of 1760s pipework. It is beautifully built, looks beautiful but the damn thing is in meantone temperament (and also has no pedals at all, but that's another matter) so the ghastly 1980s toaster it was supposed to replace is still there, the organ barely used and the parishioners feel that their money was wasted. Disaffection reigns supreme. I can see a situation where the organ will end up back where it was, rebuilt, enlarged, and put into equal temperament.

To claim that equal temperament drove out mixtures is also piffle. Robert Hope-Jones was a maverick: an inspired genius but a maverick nevertheless. I don't think you would find a single organ (let us for now ignore theatre organs) over 20 stops in this country that had no mixtures unless Hope-Jones or one of his colleagues had got at it. Organs got less harsh, not more - compare a vintage Willis, H&H or HN&B with a Schnitger or Isnard and you'll hear what I mean. Blandness? Not a bit of it - not until the 1920s when Arthur Harrison and Ernest Skinner made some organs which ended up being a bit bland. Octopods? You'd only find 8ft-only organs in tiny churches where anything more would have been overkill.

Freedom of thought also flourished in the 19th century. Additionally, Victorian man got up off his backside, threw his grandfather's stupid curly wig on the fire and actually achieved things, making the world a better place. Food production was streamlined by the industrialisation of agriculture, the introduction of ploughing and threshing engines... the arrival of the railways enabled food to be brought to market more quickly and efficiently, and even for fertiliser to be transported to improve previously poor land. The necessity of employment also brought about an improvement in the moral state of society and people sought to educate themselves to improve their chances of employment.

You did not express ideas which might be awkward to those from whom you depended for money, so you kept quiet, ideas were left unexpressed, unexplored, undeveloped, in the subsequent generations merely silent internalised thoughts . . . and died.

The above quote is such (Derogatory comment removed - moderator) that I can hardly be bothered to answer. Suffice to say that the Victorian era saw a level of innovative thinking far beyond what happened the century before. The level of inventiveness was unprecendented - and you don't get that in a society afraid to speak up for fear of losing money. Philosophical, spiritual and theological thinking was quite undimmed - indeed, the opposite was largely true.

Did I mention that the 19th century saw the abolition of the workhouses? The way was also paved for the introduction of pensions for the elderly in the first decade of the 20th century.

Also, that quote from Chaplin sounds like something Ruskin would have said in one of his ill-informed anti-development rants.

Lastly, don't even get me going on Freemasonry. If I gave vent to my thoughts about them, the funny handshake brigade would sue me and this forum's owners for libel/slander (and win, they run the judiciary) and have the forum closed down, which I don't want to happen.

Sorry if I sound like Fred Dibnah and Jeremy Clarkson rolled into one!

[David Pinnegar]

The adoption of equal temperament made it possible to play and listen to a much less limited repertoire on a single instrument without wanting to tear one's head off... a church near me has recently spent a lot of money on a new organ, around a nucleus of 1760s pipework. It is beautifully built, looks beautiful but the damn thing is in meantone temperament (and also has no pedals at all, but that's another matter)

That is hardly a fair example of how the 19th century was better than the 18th. Good Temperaments, in contrast to Meantone, were known and used by Bach and his contempories a century and half earlier. The adoption of equal temperament offended the ears of many and Tierces fell off the specifications like flies and were certainly mainly excluded from mixtures. The equal temperament tierce harmonic is part of what gives electronic Hammonds their particular twang.

Disaffection reigns supreme. I can see a situation where the organ will end up back where it was, rebuilt, enlarged, and put into equal temperament.

This is the importance of experiments that Barry Williams was going to do at Hammerwood and which I would like to do in his absence with anyone else on how far one can push the good temperaments away from equal, to get the benefits of purer intervals, without making repertoire unpleasant, or at least with an informed view of what repertoire is precluded. Is anyone up for this?

Freedom of thought also flourished in the 19th century.

Yes - it did in some quarters but was on the decline. Roman Catholic inclusion was significantly helped by Count Zinzendorf in the 18th century, a mainstay of Masonic and Moravian thought, and if I recall correctly some of the Methodist and Non Conformist origins are closely allied with Moravianism promoted by Zinzendorf. Benjamin Latrobe, son of the Moravian Minister at the Fetter Lane chapel in London which was also a centre of freemasonry, built Baltimore Cathedral, the first Roman Catholic cathedral in the USA. It was conceived as a beacon of religious freedom, with no stained glass, only white clear glass and a dome that encompassed not only the nave but the aisles as well, symbolic of inclusion.

Additionally, Victorian man got up off his backside, threw his grandfather's stupid curly wig on the fire and actually achieved things, making the world a better place. Food production was streamlined by the industrialisation of agriculture,

And look where that has got us now with soil erosion in the USA creating whole areas of dustbowl, desert and unproductive land, and did I read today that 30000 organic farmers are suing Monsanto? I'd prefer to have rotten tomatos thrown at me for what I wrote years ago about genetic engineering outside a closed system http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/ethics.htm than genetically engineered ones.

As Chaplin wrote, we have become very clever and have lost our way. We need new beginnings, as without we merely head where we don't want to go.

For that reason the signature that you use currently on your posts throughout the forum does you a disservice.

Lastly, don't even get me going on Freemasonry. If I gave vent to my thoughts about them, the funny handshake brigade would sue me and this forum's owners for libel/slander (and win, they run the judiciary) and have the forum closed down, which I don't want to happen.

18th century freemasonry, starting with St Paul's Lodge No 1 and the Lodge of Antiquity No 2 included among its members the founders of free thought and of science of their day from which all the wonderful technology of the 19th century you champion derives its roots. Secrecy was essential as their progressive thoughts were contrary to vested interests of the time. If you research further you are likely to find that those who introduced the social reforms you champion in the 19th century were freemasons too. It's possibly worth doing more research about the early origins of the movement rather than merely believing common prejudices and what you might read on the net. Freemasonry broke through sectarian barriers and was responsible for defusing many discriminations.

Finally, you have demonstrated my point of the loss of the understanding of the Renaissance by not answering, despite considerable display of erudition, my example of who were the "Men of Renown" in Genesis 6.

In view also of the ability of Roman Catholicism to be inclusive of all that went before, as Sheldrake has instanced most eruditely on his interview, the line of your signature that misunderstands the timing of the celebration of Christmas demonstrates a view narrower than that commonly comprehended and likewise does you also a disservice.

Whilst your signature has prompted a line of discussion quite properly here that is possibly helpful in developing ideas and exploring contexts, I can see that it is offensive to visitors and members of this forum to whom such matters have been philosophied at depths deeper than indicated by your simplistic signature statements, and as such are not only offensive but boring in transtopic repetition.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Dear AOC

As you have not yet managed to answer the riddle posed by the Authorised Version of Genesis 6, please would you be good enough to remove the boringly banal lines from your signature . . . I'm sure that were "Priest of the Temple of Apollo" to be printed below my signature on every post, all would be both bored and actually annoyed.

The 19th century exampaper history that you have quoted has a subtext as does much of religion which is not always what it seems at first glance.

Perhaps a Hebrew or Greek scholar may expand for us on the language but the answer to Genesis 6 starts with the flight of the Muslims upon the invasion of Teledo by the Christians in 1085. The Christian scholars discovered in the arab libraries the preservation of the Greek Myths which were seen to prove the universality of the stories of Genesis and this was the spark that ignited the Renaissance, spreading significant ecumenicalism in its wake and resulting in the heros of Greek myths and imagery of the Greek Gods adorning renaissance Catholic churches throughout Italy.

The Sons of God of Genesis were the Greek gods and the "men of renown" of the Authorised translation were the offspring of unions between mortals and immortals, the Greek heros of whom we read in the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid of Homer and Virgil.

The Parthenon becomes interesting for its frieze, not merely as an artwork but in its celebration of the creation of Pandora, a story with many parallels with that of Genesis and it is possible to read the frieze in accordance with Genesis 6 and Job 1, for it to be interpreted in accordance with the Greek religion tending towards a monotheism in the 5th century BC and a message common to Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism.

The neglect of teaching of the classics in this generation has left our times in absence of the tacit understandings behind Christianity available and obvious to former generations which gives us a view as partial as your signature lines suggest and in absence of appreciation of the wider picture.

It makes comprehension of Christianity incomplete in its capacity to include all that went before without which aspects can appear quite wrongly as nonsenses as you are pointing out: the reality is that they result only from taking too limited perspectives.

The point having been made in this thread, it does not now need to be repeated ad nauseam throughout the forum with the continued propagation of your current signature lines.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Dear AOC

Thank you for amending your signature - I am sure that it will be appreciated generally and it reflects well on you to have done so.

My purpose in trying to give contrary views on this thread, even contrary raisons d'etre has been not specifically to contradict you personally but to be able to demonstrate that there are perhaps validly wider perspectives than to which some subscribe and I hope therefore that the discussion on this thread may have been more widely useful than between merely ourselves.

I'm sure that I speak in common with many members of this forum in thanking you for the stimulation that you give to discussion and to the forum generally, even if at times you might find contradiction. Life is a learning process for us all, and that includes each one of us. It may amuse you to learn of my schock when a Greek scholar pointed out that an inscription ostensibly meaning "Of John Sperling's mansion" actually referred to John Sperling's "cattlefold", the solution to which was to turn the concept of Georgian parkland on its head: things were not ostensibly what they seemed and I hope that such experience may be of interest and helpful to others in testing perspectives.

Best wishes

David P

[KB7DQH]

And "AOC"'s most recent signature line is a most "positiv" development... :o ??? 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

(OK, I couldn't resist using the double entendre')

Eric
KB7DQH

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Somehow immersing myself in the world of Messiaen is able to wash away my cynicism for a while. When the music stops, so does my good nature. I'll soon change it back to something cynical, bitter and stereotypical, don't worry... civilisation would collapse if suddenly there was contented silence instead of my continual grumbling!  ;D

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

AOC - I doubt that anyone other than family & friends would notice for long if any of us disappeared!

Every Blessing

Tony

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Indeed so. At the same time, the alternative is the sort of mad rush to grab fame/infamy/notoriety we see in the mass media today... no thanks!  >:(

Ahem, what did I say about incessant grumbling? I'm only 20 and already I should be on "Grumpy Old Men"...