The Twelfth

[Barrie Davis]

Was the introduction of the Diapason based Twelfth to this country a Victorian idea, as prior to this period I have only ever seen Nazards, which really should be wide scale and used in conjunction with other mutations.
I am curious as I rarely use the Twelfth on the organ I play but use the Nazard on the Positif regularly.

Best wishes

Barrie

[revtonynewnham]

Hi Barrie

In a word - no!  Take a look at the stop lists of most old (i.e. pre- or just post-restoration) organs and they're usually something like:-
Open Diapason
Open Diapason
Principal
Twelfth
Fifteenth
Sesquialtra/Cornet (or some other mixture).

However, the voicing of these earlier organs was somewhat midler than the later Victorian taste, following the watershed of the 1851 Great Exhibition, when the Schultz influence began to be felt.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Open Diapason
Open Diapason
Principal
Twelfth
Fifteenth
Sesquialtra/Cornet (or some other mixture).

One open and one stopped?

Of course this is a complete diapason rather than flute chorus . . . whereas the Positive will often contain the flute chorus including the nasard.

English organs can be of such mixed heritage however - when in Italy I saw an instrument with the diapasons and flutes entirely divided on the manuals it seemed so strange but this division is beginning to be more and more clear as one explores English instruments. Colin Pykett explores in his articles the effects of the additions of different harmonics very clearly.

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

In the early days, both Diapasons would most likely be Open Diapasons, later the "Classic" Open Diapason plus Stopped Diapason became the norm - and indeed is one of the standard registrations of organ music by Stanley et al.  "Diapasons" always meaning Open + Stopped.  Also, by the stage the norm would be for a 4ft Flute (at least) in addition to part or all of the Diapason Chorus.

Chaire or Choir organ was originally a miniature version of the Great - maybe along the lines of the N. German Positive, but without the typical Baroque pitch difference.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

In the early days, both Diapasons would most likely be Open Diapasons, later the "Classic" Open Diapason plus Stopped Diapason became the norm - and indeed is one of the standard registrations of organ music by Stanley et al.  "Diapasons" always meaning Open + Stopped.  Also, by the stage the norm would be for a 4ft Flute (at least) in addition to part or all of the Diapason Chorus.

Chaire or Choir organ was originally a miniature version of the Great - maybe along the lines of the N. German Positive, but without the typical Baroque pitch difference.

Dear Tony

Thanks for that - I queried it as I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one to wonder if you might have intended to write something different . . .

"without the typical Baroque pitch difference" - you're not saying that there was on Baroque instruments a pitch difference between the Chaire and the main organ are you? Merely presumably the 415 or 492 pitch generally . . .

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

I must be half asleep (or more) today!  No, I mean the typical 8ft Hauptwerk/4ft Positive relationship (or on larger organs sometimes 16/8ft.

Every Blessing

Tony

[Jonathan Lane]

A fine late example of what Tony was talking about is found here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N15062

The development of the number of stops relates to the Swell section, missing the bottom octave, which has an Open and Trumpet in it.  The organ is therefore able to have an Echo Diapason and an Echo Trumpet, very useful for Stanley and the like!

Jonathan

[revtonynewnham]

Hi Jonathon

Yes - that's a good example.  If you (or anyone else) wants to hear what these organs sound like, then go to the NPOR web site and take a listen to the audio files in the Historic Organ Sound Archive project.

I've played a few organs with TC swell departments - a clue on stop lists is often the lack of a Swell -  Pedal coupler.  Personally, I like the music of this era, and it's good to see suitable organs being restored or even built new.

Every Blessing

Tony

[Jonathan Lane]

Thanks Tony,

I have played it and we are the tuners now, so I am beginning to get to know it rather well!

Jonathan